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	<title>Comments on: One, Two, Three: The digital order and the end of hierarchy</title>
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	<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/</link>
	<description>Exploring the web for change. Connecting people and ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Reach your audience – don't talk about Web 2.0 or social media : crisscrossed blog</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-800</link>
		<dc:creator>Reach your audience – don't talk about Web 2.0 or social media : crisscrossed blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-800</guid>
		<description>[...] So is the case of the example of the invention of the desktop and folder system – the PC desktop was developed in the seventies portraying a normal desk with papers and folders on it. The problem about it is that in the digital space, as tagging proves,  relevance and links are in a three dimensional space and go potentially in every direction. So we still use our computer in a very primitive way one could say. I blogged about the connection to hierarchy here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So is the case of the example of the invention of the desktop and folder system – the PC desktop was developed in the seventies portraying a normal desk with papers and folders on it. The problem about it is that in the digital space, as tagging proves,  relevance and links are in a three dimensional space and go potentially in every direction. So we still use our computer in a very primitive way one could say. I blogged about the connection to hierarchy here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ckreutz</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-314</link>
		<dc:creator>ckreutz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-314</guid>
		<description>@ckorakas thanks for this interesting remark. It reminds me of a presentation I heard recently on the re-publica.de conference about a system called DeepMehta (http://www.deepamehta.de), which basically gives up the desktop model and connects all things such as contacts, websites, email, documents as an own personal knowledge web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ckorakas thanks for this interesting remark. It reminds me of a presentation I heard recently on the re-publica.de conference about a system called DeepMehta (<a href="http://www.deepamehta.de" rel="nofollow">http://www.deepamehta.de</a>), which basically gives up the desktop model and connects all things such as contacts, websites, email, documents as an own personal knowledge web.</p>
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		<title>By: ckorakas</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>ckorakas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-304</guid>
		<description>very interesting discussion ... 
I personally find folder tree structures a perversion going against the natural way our brain categorises things ...

Nothing scientific here ... just a raw feeling ...
I still remember the first period i intensively used PCs (Win 3.1) I constantly had nightmares with folder structures and loss of information...

I guess over time I got used to it but I still find folder trees to be a poor compromise in categorizing knowledge ... 

Your way of viewing an issue over time changes as your understanding evolves ... 
This means that the descriptors you once intuitively used to classify a piece of information might not even come to mind when you look for this information some months - years later ... meaning you lost it !

(well there is still google desktop thank god!) 

The reason why large organisations are still operating in the first order is in my view because the first order was the only possible in the paper only world ... (well almost) 

The introduction of ICTs was done without any concern whatsoever to re engineer any thing !!
They just duplicated the limitations imposed by the physical world on the digital one ...

This is how, today, in 2008 we still have huge organisations working with the traditional (over 50 years old) filing systems even for the information now electronically produced and exchanged... 

Mails are still printed and put in Binder folders along with their digital equivalent in the windows folder ...

The responsibility of the big ones that have digitized the workplace in the early times (...) bear a huge responsibility to this in my view... 
They now try to make up for the mess created through multiple parallel folder tree systems they imposed (mail, documents, favourites etc) , by offering integrated (finally)  web solutions ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very interesting discussion &#8230;<br />
I personally find folder tree structures a perversion going against the natural way our brain categorises things &#8230;</p>
<p>Nothing scientific here &#8230; just a raw feeling &#8230;<br />
I still remember the first period i intensively used PCs (Win 3.1) I constantly had nightmares with folder structures and loss of information&#8230;</p>
<p>I guess over time I got used to it but I still find folder trees to be a poor compromise in categorizing knowledge &#8230; </p>
<p>Your way of viewing an issue over time changes as your understanding evolves &#8230;<br />
This means that the descriptors you once intuitively used to classify a piece of information might not even come to mind when you look for this information some months &#8211; years later &#8230; meaning you lost it !</p>
<p>(well there is still google desktop thank god!) </p>
<p>The reason why large organisations are still operating in the first order is in my view because the first order was the only possible in the paper only world &#8230; (well almost) </p>
<p>The introduction of ICTs was done without any concern whatsoever to re engineer any thing !!<br />
They just duplicated the limitations imposed by the physical world on the digital one &#8230;</p>
<p>This is how, today, in 2008 we still have huge organisations working with the traditional (over 50 years old) filing systems even for the information now electronically produced and exchanged&#8230; </p>
<p>Mails are still printed and put in Binder folders along with their digital equivalent in the windows folder &#8230;</p>
<p>The responsibility of the big ones that have digitized the workplace in the early times (&#8230;) bear a huge responsibility to this in my view&#8230;<br />
They now try to make up for the mess created through multiple parallel folder tree systems they imposed (mail, documents, favourites etc) , by offering integrated (finally)  web solutions &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Husband</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Husband</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-257</guid>
		<description>Did you mean &quot;&lt;b&gt;confession&lt;/b&gt; to our growing complexity&quot; or &quot;&lt;b&gt;concession&lt;/b&gt; to our growing complexity&quot; ?

Either could work, but either one would change the sense of frightening and creative as context ;-)

I see the &quot;dynamic two-way flow&quot; as (in a simplistic sense) between the up or top opof traditional hierarchy and the down or bottom of the mass of almost everyone else.

Think of it also in the oft-discussed one-way dynamic of traditional broadcasting, publishing and many other sorts of businesses .. the gatekeepers, the hierarchy know what is &quot;best for you&quot;, and that&#039;s what you get.

Much has been written and spoken about users / consumers / citizens having more power, more input, more participation now.

So yes, a dynamic two-way flow of power and authority .. the more the &quot;top&quot; listens effectively and in ways that add to the trust and the sense of being heard of the / by the &quot;bottom&quot;, the more power the bottom has ... there&#039;s an old adage from the OD (organizational development) world that &lt;i&gt;&quot;to get power you have to be willing to let go of power&quot;&lt;/i&gt; .. the interlinked infrastructure of the participative Web makes that dynamic more accessible and clearer.

extrapolate out 20 or 30 years and .. if you still believe that &lt;i&gt;&quot;Knowledge is power&quot;&lt;/i&gt;, then we will be living in quite a different world from what we know today as traditional hierarchy.

It (20 - 30 years from now) will be either much flatter, networked and negotiated amongst participants, or else it will be more authoritarian and controlled (electronically) through surveillance and control bottlenecks from electronic money and identity management by the state .. etc.

At any rate, I suspect / believe there will be an &#039;archy&quot; due to / derived from being &quot;wired&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you mean &#8220;<b>confession</b> to our growing complexity&#8221; or &#8220;<b>concession</b> to our growing complexity&#8221; ?</p>
<p>Either could work, but either one would change the sense of frightening and creative as context <img src='http://files.crisscrossed.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I see the &#8220;dynamic two-way flow&#8221; as (in a simplistic sense) between the up or top opof traditional hierarchy and the down or bottom of the mass of almost everyone else.</p>
<p>Think of it also in the oft-discussed one-way dynamic of traditional broadcasting, publishing and many other sorts of businesses .. the gatekeepers, the hierarchy know what is &#8220;best for you&#8221;, and that&#8217;s what you get.</p>
<p>Much has been written and spoken about users / consumers / citizens having more power, more input, more participation now.</p>
<p>So yes, a dynamic two-way flow of power and authority .. the more the &#8220;top&#8221; listens effectively and in ways that add to the trust and the sense of being heard of the / by the &#8220;bottom&#8221;, the more power the bottom has &#8230; there&#8217;s an old adage from the OD (organizational development) world that <i>&#8220;to get power you have to be willing to let go of power&#8221;</i> .. the interlinked infrastructure of the participative Web makes that dynamic more accessible and clearer.</p>
<p>extrapolate out 20 or 30 years and .. if you still believe that <i>&#8220;Knowledge is power&#8221;</i>, then we will be living in quite a different world from what we know today as traditional hierarchy.</p>
<p>It (20 &#8211; 30 years from now) will be either much flatter, networked and negotiated amongst participants, or else it will be more authoritarian and controlled (electronically) through surveillance and control bottlenecks from electronic money and identity management by the state .. etc.</p>
<p>At any rate, I suspect / believe there will be an &#8216;archy&#8221; due to / derived from being &#8220;wired&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: ckreutz</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>ckreutz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-256</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@husband thanks for your interesting remark and concept. Yes I agree it will take time because thinking in the third order is unusual, maybe sometimes even frightening but certainly very creative and a confession to our growing complexity. Is the two-way dynamic flow meant to be between authority and power? Would you conclude that we need to give up control in order to cope with changes that are transforming the way we work?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@husband thanks for your interesting remark and concept. Yes I agree it will take time because thinking in the third order is unusual, maybe sometimes even frightening but certainly very creative and a confession to our growing complexity. Is the two-way dynamic flow meant to be between authority and power? Would you conclude that we need to give up control in order to cope with changes that are transforming the way we work?</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Husband</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Husband</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 21:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-248</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This collective constructed network of knowledge free us from the boundaries and limitations in the physical world.&lt;/i&gt;

Conceptually, yes ...  but / and the impacts from this will slowly .. but surely .. weave their way into more and more human-based organized activities (work in organizations, busines models, the operations of institutions and the connections between constituents, customers, colleagues, etc.


&lt;i&gt;In the digital world, information is not structured that way. And certainly an organization cannot work that way in the web.&lt;/i&gt;

Nor are the activities that flow form or are based on the information flows and how they are filtered, clustered and connected (let&#039;s say through social computing).

I have been suggesting for a while that a new organizing principle is emerging .. my working definition is &lt;i&gt;&quot;a dynamic two-way flow of power and authority, based on knowledge, trust, credibility and a focus on results, enabled by interconnected people and technology&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

People to date have tended to think in terms of networks, and network dynamics.  I have called this (in my opinion) emerging organizing principle &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wirearchy.com&quot;&gt;&quot;wirearchy&quot;&lt;/a&gt;.

Honest, I dislike &quot;pimping&quot; my ideas or work, but your post was quite interesting, and your interest in the issue(s) is obvious .. so I thought I&#039;d drop in and offer my $0.02.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This collective constructed network of knowledge free us from the boundaries and limitations in the physical world.</i></p>
<p>Conceptually, yes &#8230;  but / and the impacts from this will slowly .. but surely .. weave their way into more and more human-based organized activities (work in organizations, busines models, the operations of institutions and the connections between constituents, customers, colleagues, etc.</p>
<p><i>In the digital world, information is not structured that way. And certainly an organization cannot work that way in the web.</i></p>
<p>Nor are the activities that flow form or are based on the information flows and how they are filtered, clustered and connected (let&#8217;s say through social computing).</p>
<p>I have been suggesting for a while that a new organizing principle is emerging .. my working definition is <i>&#8220;a dynamic two-way flow of power and authority, based on knowledge, trust, credibility and a focus on results, enabled by interconnected people and technology&#8221;</i></p>
<p>People to date have tended to think in terms of networks, and network dynamics.  I have called this (in my opinion) emerging organizing principle <a href="http://www.wirearchy.com">&#8220;wirearchy&#8221;</a>.</p>
<p>Honest, I dislike &#8220;pimping&#8221; my ideas or work, but your post was quite interesting, and your interest in the issue(s) is obvious .. so I thought I&#8217;d drop in and offer my $0.02.</p>
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		<title>By: ckreutz</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>ckreutz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 12:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-242</guid>
		<description>@JKE I wish we had that. :-) Do you have a concept or idea how that could look like?

@Johannes yes I agree there are documents, which are clearly more important and those one could be offered in a classical website. Although I believe that documents most wanted by employees are still hidden. Only the &quot;strategic&quot; and supposedly important docs are at the front page. Tags could also be built partly by scanning the automatically from documents. 

@Rachel yes I agree with your points. Especially information management through repository such as databases with search function have been been highly praised in the past and did not full fill the promises yet. 
A key challenge I often encounter with colleagues is that they rightly fear information overload from their past experiences (e.g. email) when it comes to social media. Hope we can change the impression! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JKE I wish we had that. <img src='http://files.crisscrossed.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Do you have a concept or idea how that could look like?</p>
<p>@Johannes yes I agree there are documents, which are clearly more important and those one could be offered in a classical website. Although I believe that documents most wanted by employees are still hidden. Only the &#8220;strategic&#8221; and supposedly important docs are at the front page. Tags could also be built partly by scanning the automatically from documents. </p>
<p>@Rachel yes I agree with your points. Especially information management through repository such as databases with search function have been been highly praised in the past and did not full fill the promises yet.<br />
A key challenge I often encounter with colleagues is that they rightly fear information overload from their past experiences (e.g. email) when it comes to social media. Hope we can change the impression! <img src='http://files.crisscrossed.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Happe</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Happe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-238</guid>
		<description>This is a great discussion and a good question.   I would say that the reason enterprises are still operating in the first order are because:

- end users are so comfortable with the first order construct (because of education, experience, etc) and this will be the biggest barrier to change.

- Software is still primarily database driven vs. index driven but this is starting to change.  Part of the reason Microsoft bought Fast Search for over $1B is that the ability to store and access unstructured information is the next huge growth in software.

- Information overload is a big issue and we still are collectively working on best practices in filtering relevant information to individuals. Pagerank, social networking, and other tools are all attempts to get users only what they will find relevant vs. all the world&#039;s information.

It is a hot space to watch and will be interesting to see how it evolves.  Thanks for the great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great discussion and a good question.   I would say that the reason enterprises are still operating in the first order are because:</p>
<p>- end users are so comfortable with the first order construct (because of education, experience, etc) and this will be the biggest barrier to change.</p>
<p>- Software is still primarily database driven vs. index driven but this is starting to change.  Part of the reason Microsoft bought Fast Search for over $1B is that the ability to store and access unstructured information is the next huge growth in software.</p>
<p>- Information overload is a big issue and we still are collectively working on best practices in filtering relevant information to individuals. Pagerank, social networking, and other tools are all attempts to get users only what they will find relevant vs. all the world&#8217;s information.</p>
<p>It is a hot space to watch and will be interesting to see how it evolves.  Thanks for the great post!</p>
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		<title>By: Johannes</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>Johannes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-236</guid>
		<description>In general I very much agree. However, one challenge that prevents organisations to work in the &#039;third order&#039; is, that sometimes the organisations needs to make sure that users find a &quot;specific&quot; document which is of certain importance to the organisations (e.g. a policy). Tagging as well as text search might lead to a situation where users don&#039;t find the doc, because tags are often used inconsistently and the usefulness of keywords in text search engines dependt on which terms users use. In this case there is a need for a structure that enforces as much as possible a situation, where the document cannot be placed (and found again) anywhere else than in the particular place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general I very much agree. However, one challenge that prevents organisations to work in the &#8216;third order&#8217; is, that sometimes the organisations needs to make sure that users find a &#8220;specific&#8221; document which is of certain importance to the organisations (e.g. a policy). Tagging as well as text search might lead to a situation where users don&#8217;t find the doc, because tags are often used inconsistently and the usefulness of keywords in text search engines dependt on which terms users use. In this case there is a need for a structure that enforces as much as possible a situation, where the document cannot be placed (and found again) anywhere else than in the particular place.</p>
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		<title>By: JKE</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>JKE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-234</guid>
		<description>Talking of tags, what do you think about enlisting a specific pilot area of the gtz knowledge online into a social bookmarking service which we could then &quot;misuse&quot; for creating a tagged directory? I call it the &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.uhuru.de/2008/02/25/the-one-stop-resource/&quot;&gt;one stop resource&lt;/a&gt;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talking of tags, what do you think about enlisting a specific pilot area of the gtz knowledge online into a social bookmarking service which we could then &#8220;misuse&#8221; for creating a tagged directory? I call it the <a href="http://blog.uhuru.de/2008/02/25/the-one-stop-resource/">one stop resource</a>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Christian Kreutz</title>
		<link>http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/comment-page-1/#comment-3496</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Kreutz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 07:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crisscrossed.net/2008/02/28/one-two-three-the-digital-order-and-the-end-of-hierarchy/#comment-3496</guid>
		<description>&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;I tried to explain the third order or everything is miscellaneous and its implications. Attention simplified. :-) http://tinyurl.com/2ws5qa&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">I tried to explain the third order or everything is miscellaneous and its implications. Attention simplified. <img src='http://files.crisscrossed.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2ws5qa" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2ws5qa</a></span></span></span></p>
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